Translator Lisa C. Hayden Discusses the Challenges of Translation, the Role of Intuition, and Why She Never Recommends Specific Editions of Classic Works
Knowing that what God did with languages at Babel was so thorough, I agree that translation is nearly impossible as a 'carrying across.' It has to be a creative process. Thanks, Lisa.
Best answer ever to your standard question of picking three people to have dinner with (or with whom to have dinner): go to a book event and have lunch with the three people in line behind you.
Reading aloud. There is a kind of translation there, too. A translation of sense that also reveals. I try to read my own writing aloud, because the ears do tell. Such a wonderful conversation in this post. Thank you both!
Fascinating and wonderful! I was so happy to read Lisa's response to your hand grenade question - you simply cannot take the human heart and thought out of translation. I am actually reading Laurus right now and was struck how the translation seemed to catch the Russian language echo perfectly; now I have additional insight into what made the novel so deeply rich in expression.
I once translated several chapters of a German novel and had the experience of plucking perfect expressions and molding grammar to keep in line with the authors voice. As Lisa noted, it is a "literary art" and not a simplistic word for word translation. I hope that AI will be kept out of this process, and that translators like Lisa will continue to pour their heart, emotions, and depth of human understanding into their work. Thanks for this excellent post Joel!
“The very fact that a translation exists is a gain.” Thanks for this delightful look into the life of a book translator. Lisa sounds like a gem! I loved her comments on listening for flow and rhythm, both to sound good in English and to match the author’s style. I am sure many readers are deeply grateful for her work.
Coincidentally, I just started Journey to the Center of the Earth last night, and I had forgotten that the original is in French. I have a deeper appreciation now for the Puffin Classics translation I am reading.
As a little bit of a language geek myself, I completely understand how translation isn't just plugging in one word for the other. I've studied some Russian, but I'm pretty fluent in German, and I see how a lot of "quick" translations end up being very clunky. (And don't get me started on the "Google translate" stuff! Sure, it does an okay job if someone needs a rough idea, but it doesn't understand things like one can't "hang up" a toilet.)
In any case, I find it a little surprising that Ms. Hayden is American; Americans have a terrible reputation for not learning other languages well. I'd just be interested to know if she thinks it makes for better translations to translate back into one's mother tongue (assuming she didn't have Russian as her first language) or the other way around. I notice with a lot of German translations - done by Germans - that there is often an inherent clunkiness because they don't have the same feel for English that a native English speaker would have. Related to that, though, is that with anyone under about 50, some English competency is expected, and from what little I've heard from living in Germany (once upon a time) Germans translating English don't get paid very well.
You are speaking well beyond my depth! The furtherest I’ve gone into the subject of translation is getting my toes wet. (I wonder how that idiom plays in Russian or German.)
I’m glad you enjoyed the conversation. I figured the community here would love her insights into translation. We all rely on translations practically every day.
What's also interesting is that very few universities seem to have any emphasis in translation even in their grad programs. Many years ago, I was poking around into perhaps going to grad school for Russian. Mind you, I only asked around a little, but when I started asking about credentials or certifications for translation, the answer was "well, we don't do that".
There's an interview that Kevin Allen from Ancient Faith does with Mother Aemiliane, who lived in Greece and became the chief translator, for a time, for Elder Aimilianos. When Allen asks about that, the result is absolutely not what he expected:
Mr. Allen: And you became, if I’m not mistaken, your elder’s chief translator from Greek into English, and you translated sermons and writings and so on?
Mother Aemiliane: Well, I’m very ashamed to admit, having played a lot of role in that, because of the kind of fearfulness of translating word for word, and not having—taking the time or having the courage to translate it as it should be done, which is to really feel completely the meaning in every detail and nuance and then finding a way to say that in the language. Many of my translations are horrible and practically incomprehensible, just word for word basically, speaking Greek with English words. You can’t do that. You can’t do that. So, unfortunately…
I've been meaning to look in on the comments to this post for two weeks and finally made it! Thank you, Joel, for your thoughtful questions and thank you to all the readers of "Miller's Book Review" for reading! I enjoyed reading your comments and would love to think that the day will come when I'll end up having lunch with one of you at a book fair or conference.
This is a great interview, Joel - if you ever thought to do these interviews as a podcast I'd love for you to do another interview with Lisa. Also, so much of this interview is very helpful for thinking about Bible translations, a topic that is often understood very woodenly (or so it seems to me).
I agree on Bible translations. I enjoy one of the more stodgy translations for typical reading: NRSV. But I’m a big fan of more idiosyncratic and loose translations.
It's fascinating, too, that every Bible translation is imperfect, but for a long time, the translations of the Bible were a HUGE resource to people learning other languages. Not only were Bibles available in many languages, but the familiarity people often had with the Bible in their own language made it easier to pick up what was written in another language.
Then again, up until the 1980s or so, learning a language at the college level probably entailed some reading of literature and perhaps a little literary translation. I graduated college with a minor in German in 2000, and by that time, the focus of most programs seems to have been on being able to actually speak the language, because that's what the educational researchers found was the reason most people in college were taking languages. I don't know; they may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on it.
My college language experience was nearly nonexistent. I needed a qualifying language class to graduate but put it off until my senior year. Then my mom got very sick and I had to help out with her so I mostly withdrew from my last couple of classes. When I came back I wanted to accelerate my final class—which happened to be my language requirement.
I asked the dean what qualifying classes were available. There was nothing except “Chinese Language and Culture” available for the 3 week intensive that was open. I had no interest in it but registered because I was desperate to graduate and move on. I didn’T learn any Chinese in that class, but I spent 3 weeks reading a lot of Chinese literature in translation. It ended up being a very fun class.
Thank you for posting this interview Joel. It's the first time I hear of Vodolazkin or Lisa and it's left me very curious about reading her translations. I hope you'll post more interviews in the future with other translators!
Thank you so much for writing about this! I've been taking Italian classes with the goal of someday going into literary translation and possibly philology. It's a really mysterious field that's hard to find a lot of clear/useful information about, so reading this was seriously a joy. Thank you!!!
A diversity of language and culture should always be encouraged. It is one of the things I love most about the International Baccalaureate curriculum, which is so diverse in comparison to UK curricula. There is a real celebration of World Literature which I believe opens students’ eyes beyond the here and the now. I am lucky to be able to access literature in English, Arabic, Farsi and French; I am grateful to those who allow me to read texts originally written in Chinese, Japanese, Spanish and Russian.
There is a magic to these texts, but I also feel that I'm missing out by not reading them in their native tongue. I know that when I write translations in the marginalia, they differ slightly to what is written in the original language; but I also feel blessed to experience that poetical magic whilst reading in their intended form.
Translation might be a bit of cloudy window, but for some of us it’s the only window available. What a blessing to have enough command of other languages to engage in the original!
Have you read George Saunders' book on writing, A Swim in the Pond in the Rain? He has some great passages in there where he analyzes the difference in translations in various Russian short stories. It really opened my eyes to how different some translations can be and how hard translators work to get to the heart of the story.
Knowing that what God did with languages at Babel was so thorough, I agree that translation is nearly impossible as a 'carrying across.' It has to be a creative process. Thanks, Lisa.
Maybe we can think of translation as a form of common grace.
Best answer ever to your standard question of picking three people to have dinner with (or with whom to have dinner): go to a book event and have lunch with the three people in line behind you.
I know! I was a bit tickled with that answer myself. I’ve been at enough book events to know it would yield a great conversation.
Reading aloud. There is a kind of translation there, too. A translation of sense that also reveals. I try to read my own writing aloud, because the ears do tell. Such a wonderful conversation in this post. Thank you both!
Yes, reading aloud tells you a lot about the rhythm of a passage. It’s also helpful for proofreading, and I probably need to do that more :)
Fascinating and wonderful! I was so happy to read Lisa's response to your hand grenade question - you simply cannot take the human heart and thought out of translation. I am actually reading Laurus right now and was struck how the translation seemed to catch the Russian language echo perfectly; now I have additional insight into what made the novel so deeply rich in expression.
I once translated several chapters of a German novel and had the experience of plucking perfect expressions and molding grammar to keep in line with the authors voice. As Lisa noted, it is a "literary art" and not a simplistic word for word translation. I hope that AI will be kept out of this process, and that translators like Lisa will continue to pour their heart, emotions, and depth of human understanding into their work. Thanks for this excellent post Joel!
Thanks for reading, Ruth. I knew Lisa would resonate here. I was delighted and intrigued by her responses.
“The very fact that a translation exists is a gain.” Thanks for this delightful look into the life of a book translator. Lisa sounds like a gem! I loved her comments on listening for flow and rhythm, both to sound good in English and to match the author’s style. I am sure many readers are deeply grateful for her work.
I first started chatting with her on Twitter; she’s always been very inviting.
Coincidentally, I just started Journey to the Center of the Earth last night, and I had forgotten that the original is in French. I have a deeper appreciation now for the Puffin Classics translation I am reading.
I enjoyed this interview quite a lot!
As a little bit of a language geek myself, I completely understand how translation isn't just plugging in one word for the other. I've studied some Russian, but I'm pretty fluent in German, and I see how a lot of "quick" translations end up being very clunky. (And don't get me started on the "Google translate" stuff! Sure, it does an okay job if someone needs a rough idea, but it doesn't understand things like one can't "hang up" a toilet.)
In any case, I find it a little surprising that Ms. Hayden is American; Americans have a terrible reputation for not learning other languages well. I'd just be interested to know if she thinks it makes for better translations to translate back into one's mother tongue (assuming she didn't have Russian as her first language) or the other way around. I notice with a lot of German translations - done by Germans - that there is often an inherent clunkiness because they don't have the same feel for English that a native English speaker would have. Related to that, though, is that with anyone under about 50, some English competency is expected, and from what little I've heard from living in Germany (once upon a time) Germans translating English don't get paid very well.
You are speaking well beyond my depth! The furtherest I’ve gone into the subject of translation is getting my toes wet. (I wonder how that idiom plays in Russian or German.)
I’m glad you enjoyed the conversation. I figured the community here would love her insights into translation. We all rely on translations practically every day.
What's also interesting is that very few universities seem to have any emphasis in translation even in their grad programs. Many years ago, I was poking around into perhaps going to grad school for Russian. Mind you, I only asked around a little, but when I started asking about credentials or certifications for translation, the answer was "well, we don't do that".
The ‘clunkiness’ you speak of is something I've picked up on too. X
The dreaded “translatese”!
There's an interview that Kevin Allen from Ancient Faith does with Mother Aemiliane, who lived in Greece and became the chief translator, for a time, for Elder Aimilianos. When Allen asks about that, the result is absolutely not what he expected:
Mr. Allen: And you became, if I’m not mistaken, your elder’s chief translator from Greek into English, and you translated sermons and writings and so on?
Mother Aemiliane: Well, I’m very ashamed to admit, having played a lot of role in that, because of the kind of fearfulness of translating word for word, and not having—taking the time or having the courage to translate it as it should be done, which is to really feel completely the meaning in every detail and nuance and then finding a way to say that in the language. Many of my translations are horrible and practically incomprehensible, just word for word basically, speaking Greek with English words. You can’t do that. You can’t do that. So, unfortunately…
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/features/a_miracle_at_the_hyatt_the_story_of_abbess_aemiliane
Wow. I’ve never heard that one.
I've been meaning to look in on the comments to this post for two weeks and finally made it! Thank you, Joel, for your thoughtful questions and thank you to all the readers of "Miller's Book Review" for reading! I enjoyed reading your comments and would love to think that the day will come when I'll end up having lunch with one of you at a book fair or conference.
Thanks for sharing a little slice of your world with us!
Thank you for inviting me, Joel, it was my pleasure to answer your questions!
This is a great interview, Joel - if you ever thought to do these interviews as a podcast I'd love for you to do another interview with Lisa. Also, so much of this interview is very helpful for thinking about Bible translations, a topic that is often understood very woodenly (or so it seems to me).
I agree on Bible translations. I enjoy one of the more stodgy translations for typical reading: NRSV. But I’m a big fan of more idiosyncratic and loose translations.
It's fascinating, too, that every Bible translation is imperfect, but for a long time, the translations of the Bible were a HUGE resource to people learning other languages. Not only were Bibles available in many languages, but the familiarity people often had with the Bible in their own language made it easier to pick up what was written in another language.
Then again, up until the 1980s or so, learning a language at the college level probably entailed some reading of literature and perhaps a little literary translation. I graduated college with a minor in German in 2000, and by that time, the focus of most programs seems to have been on being able to actually speak the language, because that's what the educational researchers found was the reason most people in college were taking languages. I don't know; they may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on it.
My college language experience was nearly nonexistent. I needed a qualifying language class to graduate but put it off until my senior year. Then my mom got very sick and I had to help out with her so I mostly withdrew from my last couple of classes. When I came back I wanted to accelerate my final class—which happened to be my language requirement.
I asked the dean what qualifying classes were available. There was nothing except “Chinese Language and Culture” available for the 3 week intensive that was open. I had no interest in it but registered because I was desperate to graduate and move on. I didn’T learn any Chinese in that class, but I spent 3 weeks reading a lot of Chinese literature in translation. It ended up being a very fun class.
Thank you for posting this interview Joel. It's the first time I hear of Vodolazkin or Lisa and it's left me very curious about reading her translations. I hope you'll post more interviews in the future with other translators!
That’s a great idea. I did one in November with Shadi Bartsch. We talked a bit about her translation work. https://www.millersbookreview.com/p/shadi-bartsch-classics-translation
Thanks for the link Joel, I'll check it out.
Thanks for this interview. I loved Vodolazkin's "Laurus," but I agree with you on my personal favorite -- "The Aviator."
It’s such a wonderful book! They both are.
Thank you so much for writing about this! I've been taking Italian classes with the goal of someday going into literary translation and possibly philology. It's a really mysterious field that's hard to find a lot of clear/useful information about, so reading this was seriously a joy. Thank you!!!
You’re welcome! Best of luck to you on your translation journey! That sounds awesome.
Thank you!!
A diversity of language and culture should always be encouraged. It is one of the things I love most about the International Baccalaureate curriculum, which is so diverse in comparison to UK curricula. There is a real celebration of World Literature which I believe opens students’ eyes beyond the here and the now. I am lucky to be able to access literature in English, Arabic, Farsi and French; I am grateful to those who allow me to read texts originally written in Chinese, Japanese, Spanish and Russian.
There is a magic to these texts, but I also feel that I'm missing out by not reading them in their native tongue. I know that when I write translations in the marginalia, they differ slightly to what is written in the original language; but I also feel blessed to experience that poetical magic whilst reading in their intended form.
Translation might be a bit of cloudy window, but for some of us it’s the only window available. What a blessing to have enough command of other languages to engage in the original!
Fascinating.
Agreed. I find the whole process of translation fascinating. I’m so grateful for it.
Have you read George Saunders' book on writing, A Swim in the Pond in the Rain? He has some great passages in there where he analyzes the difference in translations in various Russian short stories. It really opened my eyes to how different some translations can be and how hard translators work to get to the heart of the story.