Knowing what mainstream literary scholars really talk about when they talk about books has helped me understand that there is more to studying media than just the media itself.
This was so much fun to read. Ordering Paddling My Own Canoe right now. I hope I grow up to be someone who confidently dismisses Shakespeare skeptics as not living in the real world.
P.S. For best living American writers, I agree with the proposed list (especially Marilynne Robinson) and nominate Jesmyn Ward. The NY Times included all or almost all of her books on their misguided 100 Best Books of the 21st Century List, and that felt, oddly, like one of the only things that list got right.
Yes, there should be better research, and people who want to argue that reading literature is still relevant ought to be pounding the table for better research, but they don't, and they by and large ignore the research that there already is. Also, nothing looks weaker than just dogmatically insisting that literary studies are valuable without anything to back the statement up.
So literary people do make some arguments for the value of the field. But there are people out there who deny the value of literary studies, like Bentham's Bulldog. If you don't reference any scientific findings in a debate with someone like BB, it seems that there can't be any productive debate at all because what facts are you debating? And that's too bad. You can have productive debates about theories of consciousness with BB, as I have, because you can reference a large body of scientific findings that support whatever side you're on. https://open.substack.com/pub/benthams/p/against-literature?r=4952v2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Possibly, but the problem is that if you don't come up with some kind of scientific case that literary study is valuable, the whole field may be defunded. And I think if literary people don't try to make that case, that's what they deserve.
I read the following article yesterday. As a retired teacher, it made me see red. As a thinking human being, it made me fear for the future of society. As an artist and writer, it absolutely gutted me.
Studying the great works (and sometimes even the not-so-great works!) is one of the wonderful things about going to school: being guided and given context by passionate teachers; sharing with your classmates the experience of epiphany and heartbreak, outrage and satisfaction; learning from the foibles of historical and/or fictional characters; being forever awed by the way that words can be manipulated to make your emotions run the gamut. Studying literature (in its entirety, as the author intends!) is one of the most beautiful things that our humanity enables us to do.
I love the phrasing of great literature as monuments of human achievement, similar to architectural works. Great human achievements happen in all sorts of ways. Many times travel is put on a pedestal as the main way to encounter the wonders of the world, so this is a good reminder that you don’t always have to go that far!
I only discovered Diana Wynne Jones this year, and wondered where her books had been in my childhood. I never came across her works in the library, and my mother worked there - I can only assume her books weren't well distributed in Canada. She is a truly impressive writer of young fantasy, fresh and inventive, while drawing on the great folk and literary traditions before her.
As usual, Mr. Miller, you found a fascinating person to interview. I got on an Iris Murdoch jag years ago and read half a dozen of her books in a row. My wife got concerned, because she saw that I was getting depressed reading about all these nasty characters! That said, her late novel, The Green Knight, is still one of my favorite books by any author.
I think there can be some status play around it, but consider all the art that has been made that liberally stole from Shakespeare without credit and made money. Anyone But You, West Side Story, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, She's the Man, Ran, 10 Things I Hate About You, The Lion King.
There is no signalling around these. Anyone But You is a film that made $220m in multiplexes, which means a lot of non-elite people like hairdressers and waitresses enjoyed it. Most of them probably don't even know that it's Much Ado About Nothing. Throne of Blood was the second highest grossing film in Japan in 1957. People munching popcorn to Macbeth.
Joel and Henry, thanks for the great conversation here. Certainly some interesting ideas to explore further and thanks for providing a few new reading recommendations.
Knowing what mainstream literary scholars really talk about when they talk about books has helped me understand that there is more to studying media than just the media itself.
This was so much fun to read. Ordering Paddling My Own Canoe right now. I hope I grow up to be someone who confidently dismisses Shakespeare skeptics as not living in the real world.
P.S. For best living American writers, I agree with the proposed list (especially Marilynne Robinson) and nominate Jesmyn Ward. The NY Times included all or almost all of her books on their misguided 100 Best Books of the 21st Century List, and that felt, oddly, like one of the only things that list got right.
Not familiar with her work, but will have a look thanks
SO glad you ordered her book!! lmk what you think!
It frustrates me is that literary scholars ignore science when making the case for the continued relevance of their field, just as Henry Oliver does here. There is plenty of scientific evidence that reading literature improves cognition. This evidence should be where the defense of literary studies starts: https://open.substack.com/pub/eclecticinquiries/p/literary-scholars-are-ignoring-science?r=4952v2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
I wouldn’t say Henry ignores it. This is a short exchange that only covers a sliver of the subject.
Has he ever written anything about the scientific evidence for the cognitive benefits of studying literature?
two other points: I am not a scholar, and the research outlined at that link is pretty weak!
Yes, there should be better research, and people who want to argue that reading literature is still relevant ought to be pounding the table for better research, but they don't, and they by and large ignore the research that there already is. Also, nothing looks weaker than just dogmatically insisting that literary studies are valuable without anything to back the statement up.
Not what I did or do!
So literary people do make some arguments for the value of the field. But there are people out there who deny the value of literary studies, like Bentham's Bulldog. If you don't reference any scientific findings in a debate with someone like BB, it seems that there can't be any productive debate at all because what facts are you debating? And that's too bad. You can have productive debates about theories of consciousness with BB, as I have, because you can reference a large body of scientific findings that support whatever side you're on. https://open.substack.com/pub/benthams/p/against-literature?r=4952v2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Maybe some knowledge is not tractable to his methods!!
Possibly, but the problem is that if you don't come up with some kind of scientific case that literary study is valuable, the whole field may be defunded. And I think if literary people don't try to make that case, that's what they deserve.
I read the following article yesterday. As a retired teacher, it made me see red. As a thinking human being, it made me fear for the future of society. As an artist and writer, it absolutely gutted me.
Studying the great works (and sometimes even the not-so-great works!) is one of the wonderful things about going to school: being guided and given context by passionate teachers; sharing with your classmates the experience of epiphany and heartbreak, outrage and satisfaction; learning from the foibles of historical and/or fictional characters; being forever awed by the way that words can be manipulated to make your emotions run the gamut. Studying literature (in its entirety, as the author intends!) is one of the most beautiful things that our humanity enables us to do.
https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/spotlights/2024/not-so-great-expectations-students-are-reading-fewer-books-in-english-class/
That is sad, and there are consequences
I love the phrasing of great literature as monuments of human achievement, similar to architectural works. Great human achievements happen in all sorts of ways. Many times travel is put on a pedestal as the main way to encounter the wonders of the world, so this is a good reminder that you don’t always have to go that far!
You may enjoy this https://www.commonreader.co.uk/p/the-readers-quest-how-literature
I only discovered Diana Wynne Jones this year, and wondered where her books had been in my childhood. I never came across her works in the library, and my mother worked there - I can only assume her books weren't well distributed in Canada. She is a truly impressive writer of young fantasy, fresh and inventive, while drawing on the great folk and literary traditions before her.
Excellent and insightful interview! I was most excited to learn that Dickens makes it to Nr.1 on your list too:)
My list is not a very permanent thing... My mood today would put Henry James much higher!
As usual, Mr. Miller, you found a fascinating person to interview. I got on an Iris Murdoch jag years ago and read half a dozen of her books in a row. My wife got concerned, because she saw that I was getting depressed reading about all these nasty characters! That said, her late novel, The Green Knight, is still one of my favorite books by any author.
That is my next one---CAN'T WAIT
I think there can be some status play around it, but consider all the art that has been made that liberally stole from Shakespeare without credit and made money. Anyone But You, West Side Story, Throne of Blood, Forbidden Planet, She's the Man, Ran, 10 Things I Hate About You, The Lion King.
There is no signalling around these. Anyone But You is a film that made $220m in multiplexes, which means a lot of non-elite people like hairdressers and waitresses enjoyed it. Most of them probably don't even know that it's Much Ado About Nothing. Throne of Blood was the second highest grossing film in Japan in 1957. People munching popcorn to Macbeth.
Joel and Henry, thanks for the great conversation here. Certainly some interesting ideas to explore further and thanks for providing a few new reading recommendations.